United Airlines Takes a Lawsuit Over Preferential Treatment of Blondes...

A recent lawsuit filed versus United Airlines shows how complicated/dangerous staffing decisions involving customer-facing positions can be.

A rundown of the lawsuit appears below. Embedded in all of this is the perception of what customers want, the concept/definition of bias, and the obligation a company has across employment law when staffing decisions for premium assignments are made in a manner inconsistent with established norms. Flight-attendant-

For years, attractive people (both female and male) have had an advantage in the workplace - that's documented through research. However, there are attractive people across all races and nationalities. Good luck to the organization/company in 2020 that identifies the "right" kind of attractiveness as belonging to young, white blonde females.

The answer to this for United is pretty simple. Work through the lawsuit and work with sports leagues (NBA, NFL, MLB and NHL) to ensure inclusivity. Trust me, those sports leagues don't want anything to do with media attention that suggests they're requesting the stereotype outlined below.

------------------------------------------

United Airlines Holdings Inc. packs its charter flights for sports teams with young, blond crews and bars older flight attendants from working the plum routes, according to a new lawsuit.

In so doing, the airline bases the value of workers “entirely on their racial and physical attributes, and stereotypical notions of sexual allure,” according to two veteran flight attendants who sued Friday in California.

The attendants -- a Black woman who has worked for the airline for 28 years and a Jewish woman with 34 years of tenure -- say that they both tried repeatedly and unsuccessfully to get assigned to work the charter flights.

United Airlines has contracts to provide air travel for some three dozen teams in the National Football League, Major League Baseball and National Collegiate Athletic Association, according to the lawsuit. Attendants who work those flights earn more and are provided with premium accommodations. They also sometimes get tickets to games, including playoff and Super Bowl tickets, and “extremely valuable” infield passes, according to the lawsuit.

Sharon Tesler and Kim Guillory said they were told by supervisors that they were unable to get work on the charters because they weren’t on “preferred” lists that were based on team preferences, according to the complaint.

They said they later discovered that young, white blond attendants -- with less seniority -- were given the assignments. United Airlines “has adopted and continues to implement procedures that are designed to ensure that young, white, blond/blue-eyed, female employees receive positions with the charter program, while more senior, and Black and Jewish employees such as plaintiffs, do not,” they said in the complaint.

The women are asking for monetary, including punitive, damages.

The case is Guillory v. United Airlines, Inc, 20-civ-03889, in Superior Court of California, County of San Mateo.

--------------------------------------------

Section 7.A.9 of United’s 2016-2021 Flight Attendant Joint Collective Bargaining Agreement (called JBCA for short) holds:

9 . Charters and Special Purpose Flights

a. Charters, extra sections and scenic flights assigned to a Base will be available for use in line construction or placed in open time, unless a particular Flight Attendant(s) has in open time, unless a particular Flight Attendant(s) has been requested by the charter organization.

Note the text in red. Although United’s flight attendant union (AFA) is strictly seniority-based in almost every respect, United’s collective bargaining agreement leaves open a loophole for charter customers to personally request flight attendants.

That's messy. The notes from Live and Let's Fly goes on to share that they've learned the average age of attendants on United charter flights is 46 years old, and United has a higher percentage of Black flight attendants in its sports team charter program than in its overall flight attendant population. Not sure of the source of that info.
 
It will be interesting to track this one.

Pandemic/Recession Notes: It's Going to Get Hard to Recruit Candidates in Stable Situations (The Best Hire Ever Podcast)...

If there's one thing I learned in the last recession that's going to help me this time around, it's this:

All things being equal, when we are deep in a recession, reasonable people in stable employment situations are less likely to jump to a new job.

I know what you're saying - you've got multiple examples where that's not the case. I hear you, but note the start of the statement above - "all things being equal."

When we're in a recession, which we are as I write this in 2020 (pandemic, even!), it's harder to get stable people to move. Good boss, decent job, seems stable - why would they take a chance on you, especially when the pandemic flavor of the recession we're in makes them even less confident your company is going to survive?

Candidates ALWAYS have imperfect information on the companies they're moving to.  Will the company make it? Is my new boss secretly a crazy person?  The unemployed are relatively easy to recruit in recessions - they need a job, and they need it quick - the employed are harder to move when times are tough.

Your best chance is really good, incredibly transparent marketing related to your open job. Think job postings and everything around it.

That's why I recently chatted with Katrina Kibben, CEO and Founder of Three Ears Media, on my podcast BEST HIRE EVER. We talked at length on the value of great job postings and marketing materials, and I had Katrina break down the elements of a job posting that generates results and talk about influencing candidates through great copy writing across all job marketing materials.  

Please subscribe, rate and review (Apple) and follow (Spotify) to get the latest Best Hire Ever podcast delivered to you.  Click here if you don't see the podcast player below.

SHOW HIGHLIGHTS:

1:05 - "What up, KD?"

1:30 - KD is a ray of sunshine as he delivers the Q2 GDP numbers and connects it to great job postings.

2:52 - A bit about the artist known as Katrina and Three Ears Media.

5:15 - KD wants to know about the the decision for Katrina to specialize and go DEEEEEEEEEEP in the job posting/job attraction space – why?

9:30 - What are 3 things people can improve on related to their job postings?  Katrina breaks down the problems with 1) content being way too long, 2) bad intakes lead to bad content (buzzwords), and 3) Guessing and winging it.  Katrina goes deep in each area and drops incredible knowledge.

16:10 - KD asks Katrina for the most challenging personas across hiring managers. A story about Missouri is part of the magic!

19:30 - KD focuses on what he views as the the pandemic/recession dilemma. You’re a hiring manager and need great talent. How do you convince people that your company will make it through and they can jump from where they are and be OK at the company you’re a part of?  Katrina acknowledges the challenge but talks about people who have great jobs who are looking for more.

22:25 - Katrina and KD talk about the isolation via the Pandemic creating time to complement career paths with talented people.

24:00 - Katrina gets technical and breaks down the "Human About Us" portion of a job posting as being the place to create confidence in your company. Don't cut and paste a press release. Talk about where you're at right now. Acknowledge the past, talk honestly about the bounce back, etc. #transparency

29:00 - KD asks Katrina how hiring managers can make candidates believe in them as a candidate. 

35:10 - Katrina and KD wrap it up with WNBA talk.

RESOURCES AND SHOW NOTES:

------------Katrina Kibben

Katrina Kibben on Linkedin

Three Ears Media

------------Kris Dunn

Kris Dunn on LinkedIn

Kinetix

The HR Capitalist

Fistful of Talent

Boss Leadership Training Series

Kris Dunn on Twitter

Kris Dunn on Instagram


HR TROLLS: Thinking Unemployment on Steroids Means You Have a Compensation Problem...

Short post today, but an important one. I belong to multiple online groups covering HR on a variety of platforms - you know the type - people can post questions on problems they're having in their HR shops and get help, advice and recommendations from their peers.

On one of the big forums on Facebook, a HR Director posted about problems she was having recruiting for the Distribution Center she supported, and reported that she believed that part of the issue was Trollthat many candidates who would normally be under consideration were recipients of the $600 weekly employment benefit that's part of the COVID stimulus program. The theory, which many of you know, goes like this - once a potential candidate adds up the state and federal unemployment and is earning the equivalent of 40-55K annualized (depends on your state benefit level), it's hard to get them to come back to a $15-20 an hour job.

That's more than a theory, that's likely reality in many cases.

So our friendly HR Director asks for guidance, and I'd say 20% of the responses went something like this:

"You should look in the mirror and pay a living wage."

There were different versions of that, but they all shared a common belief. The problem wasn't the incentive, it was the company.

What planet did I wake up on as I navigate the 5th month of the COVID experience? Mind you, this wasn't a random message board, it was a members only HR forum. You know, HR people. 

It's a tone deaf, light form of shaming that we've become all too used to in the cancel culture we live in.  How dare you not pay your employees enough to incent them to come back from a historically rich form of government benefit designed to keep the economy going in a pandemic?

Man, those shaming style commenters in a HR forum. Talk about not understanding the business as a limiting factor to HR success.

I'm still a fan of what the US government did. They moved fast, and while it wasn't perfect, the stimulus did what it was supposed to do.

But artificially propped up comp can't last forever, and while I write this it's unclear what type of Federal unemployment benefit will emerge in August after the $600 benefit expires at the end of July. It's likely to be significantly less. There's likely to be pain as a result of the benefit being reduced, and I don't take that lightly.

HR trolls suck. The world has enough trolls - our profession doesn't need our own version.

 


Are You Willing to Hire "Athletes" Rather Than Specialists at Your Company?

First up, the term "athlete" in this post is meant to describe hiring those who are generally smart, intellectually curious, quick on their feet, learn quickly, are great communicators and have DNA for drive/initiative - rather than hiring someone with domain experience in a job as your first concern.

With that description in mind, do you and/or your company favor athletes over specialists? Sometimes? Never? In what circumstances? Hfm

I'm drawn to the question since I read this passage from Diary of a Very Bad Year: Interviews with an Anonymous Hedge Fund Manager by Anonymous Hedge Fund Manager:

“HFM: I didn’t go to business school. I did not major in economics. I learned the old-fashioned way, by apprenticing to a very talented investor, so I wound up getting into the hedge fund business before I think many people knew what a hedge fund was. I’ve been doing it for over ten years. I’m sure today I would never get hired.
 
n + 1: Really?
 
HFM: Yeah, it would be impossible because I had no background, or I had a very exiguous background in finance. The guy who hired me always talked about hiring good intellectual athletes, people who were sort of mentally agile in an all-around way, and that the specifics of finance you could learn, which I think is true. But at the time, I mean, no hedge fund was really flooded with applicants, and that allowed him to let his mind range a little bit and consider different kinds of candidates. Today we have a recruiting group, and what do they do? They throw résumés at you, and it’s, like, one business school guy, one finance major after another, kids who, from the time they were twelve years old, were watching Jim Cramer and dreaming of working in a hedge fund. And I think in reality that probably they’re less likely to make good investors than people with sort of more interesting backgrounds.
 
n + 1: Why?
 
HFM: Because I think that in the end the way that you make a ton of money is calling paradigm shifts, and people who are real finance types, maybe they can work really well within the paradigm of a particular kind of market or a particular set of rules of the game—and you can make money doing that—but the people who make huge money, the George Soroses and Julian Robertsons of the world, they’re the people who can step back and see when the paradigm is going to shift, and I think that comes from having a broader experience, a little bit of a different approach to how you think about things.

When you think about hedge funds, the book quote above displays a common trend. In the early days of any industry or specialty, it's easier to hire the best athlete available, mainly because domain experience doesn't really exist or is generally unavailable. The industry is too young.

But as the industry matures, risk taking on new hires goes down - because candidates with domain experience are widely available.

We could all probably stand to hire more athletes who are capable of not only doing the job in question, but become an agile talent asset for the company. But just saying that you're open to hiring an athlete doesn't mean you'll have success.

For best results in hiring "athletes", you'll need to define what makes someone an athlete. You won't generally find that on a resume, you'll need an assessment package.  For me, a candidate would qualify as an athlete if they have a high cognitive capability, low rules orientation (because I want to throw them at anything I want, they can't be hung up on that), high details (drives execution) and great writing and verbal skills.

They'd also have to be familiar with the term, "fake it 'til you make it", which I think is the mindset of any "athlete" worth her salt as defined by this post.

What did I miss?


Will Forcing Interviews for Women and Minority Candidates Improve Results? (HR Famous Podcast)

In a word, yes.

I've written about the NFL's Rooney Rule here. Go dig into that for a primer. 

The whole point to the Rooney Rule is opening up the perspective of a walled-off hiring manager/executive.  That's why WMware announced a new commitment to include a minority and female candidate in every search at the company.

We're talking about this at length this week on The HR Famous Podcast. Take a listen below!

-------------------------------

In episode 21 of the HR Famous Podcast, long-time HR leaders (and friends) Tim Sackett, Kris Dunn, and Jessica Lee come together to talk about The Rooney Rule and VMware’s new commitment to include a minority and female candidate in every search at the company. The gang also discusses how often they’ve filled up their car tanks during quarantine, and something called Generation Zoom.

Listen below (click this link if you don’t see the player below) and be sure to subscribe, rate, and review (iTunes) and follow (Spotify)!

Show Highlights:

1:30 – How many times have you filled your gas tank during quarantine? Jlee has only filled her tank once since March!

3:00 – Who doesn’t love a best friend duo that runs together? KD and Tim went running in Celebration, Florida together. KD was on Zillow on his phone the entire time they ran in the community and Tim was dying.

5:45 – KD has been reading a lot about “Generation Zoom”; our younger generation that has been learning through distance learning. Jlee talks about how her young kids may have trouble learning in the future since they are losing a lot of development time in school.

9:00 – Do you think there will be a dip in SAT and ACT scores in the coming year? Tim is interested to see where the data falls.

10:45 – First major topic of the day: The Rooney Rule. This NFL rule places interview quotas for minority candidates for coaching positions. Tim talks about how more minority candidates have been put into the interview process and what it’s meant in hiring minority coaches.

16:00 – Jlee discusses her own personal experience getting an opportunity that she might not have based on her resume and how she relates to the experience of Mike Tomlin.

18:00 – Tim talks about some negative views on the Rooney Rule and how often coaching positions are planned and picked out far in advance.

20:00 – KD and Jlee bring up another positive of the Rooney Rule, in that it forces forcing hiring managers to look harder and potentially finding special people that they may not have been able to find before, even if it’s not for that particular position.

22:30 – Second topic of the day: VMware’s CEO (Patrick Gelsinger) announced their company would commit to interviewing a POC and a woman for every single position. KD thinks this sounds similar to the Rooney Rule. KD and Tim praises VMware and other companies who have come out recently with new processes and practices to help diversify their workforce.

26:20 – Jlee brings up potential backlash from recruiters and other hiring managers. She notes that leaders need to give recruiters some leeway in order to reach performance metrics and new interviewing goals.

29:40 – How will this new hiring practice work in practice? KD brings up the self ID process and when it comes into play in the hiring process. Jlee discusses the data recruiters will be giving to hiring managers and how they will report that they are meeting a certain requirement.

33:00 – KD reads VMware’s CEO statement again to Tim and gets his reaction. Tim thinks there are many aspects to this new rule that need to be addressed in order to be successful in finding the best possible candidates.

36:00 – Pat (CEO of VM Ware) is a new best friend of the pod!

36:20 – Jlee and KD praise the leadership at VMware for going ahead with this announcement and implementation of the rule instead of getting bogged down in details and complaints.

38:45 – Jlee and KD talk about the concept of equality vs diversity, with KD bringing up Salesforce’s move years ago to grab the high ground of equality.

41:00 – HR Famous would like to congratulate Patrick Gelsinger from VMware on a job well done with their new version of the Rooney Rule.

 


The HR Famous Podcast: e19 - Starbucks Uniform Woes and Hourly Hiring...

In episode 19 of The HR Famous Podcast, long-time HR leaders (and friends) Tim Sackett, Kris Dunn, and Jessica Lee are back to discuss a number of topics about diverse hiring. The trio talk about Adidas’s new hiring goal, tech companies’ contribution to the BLM movement, and Starbucks’ uniform debacle. Later in the episode, Tim is joined by HR leader Jonathan Zoob about hourly hiring and sitting courtside at an NBA game. 

Click through if you don't see the player below, and be sure to subscribe, rate, and review (iTunes) and follow (Spotify)!

1:30 - The gang is finally back together! It’s been a few weeks, but Tim, Jlee, and KD are all back on the podcast this week!

2:30 - First topic of the day: popular brand pronunciations. Apparently, the US says everything different than the rest of the world. 

3:45 - Adidas has announced that 30% of their hires will be diverse hires. The gang praises Adidas for putting a number out there to start progress but they question where the hiring is going to cause change. 

8:40 - Tim discusses a goal that he had at a previous company for diverse hires in leadership roles. He talks about push back from hiring managers and other certain people that feel victimized by diversity hiring goals. 

10:30 - KD talks about his favorite “Tim working at Applebee’s” story. Tim says that Applebee’s restrooms are like “a war zone”.....

11:30 - CNBC compiled a list of different tech companies and what they’re doing to support the BLM movement. Every company on the list contributed lots of money, but only one organization announced a change in leadership, when the CEO of Reddit stepped down from his board seat to fill it with a POC. Tim accuses many tech companies of “buying their way out of this conversation” instead of making real change happen. KD thinks that monetary contributions are still commendable but they need to effect real change too. 

14:45 - “You have to have money but you also have to have tangible movement”. 

16:30 - Starbucks’ employees were told that they could not wear apparel supporting BLM to work. They received backlash because Starbucks’ allows their employees to wear Pride-related uniforms in the month of June. They have pivoted since their original decision. Jlee praises them for pivoting and listening to their employees and what they want. 

20:00 - Tim thinks that Starbucks’ and other companies that enforce uniforms should standardize their uniforms and not allow anything other than a standard option since it is easier to manage and can raise many issues. He says that you can support diversity and other causes and keep a plain uniform. 

22:00 - “Print the shirts” -KD

23:30 - Time for this week’s special guest! Jonathan Zoob from Fountain has joined Tim for the second half of this week’s episode to talk about hourly hiring. 

25:00 - Tim and Zoob talk about their bucket list to sit courtside at a NBA game. They’re both Golden State Warriors fans!

27:00 - Back to business talk. Tim discusses hearing about pre-pandemic struggles to hire hourly workers and he asks Zoob what is going to change about hiring hourly workers. 

30:00 - Tim asks Zoob why companies should use different systems for hourly workers. 

32:30 - Are new hiring practices for hourly workers causing companies to lose the traditional experience of finding the best candidate? Zoob discusses how his company’s work allows non-HR professionals to find more and better candidates. 

34:30 - Tim brings up issues about hiring to create a diverse workforce and how training hiring leaders may not be enough. Zoob discusses how often those doing hiring won’t get diversity and bias training. 

36:00 - What do Fountain’s clients see getting better when using the Fountain system? Zoob says their time to hire decreases significantly. 

37:15 - Tim asks Zoob how fast time to hire should be and Zoob answers that companies must engage candidates in the application process to really get them to stay interested. 

39:00 - Last question of the day: will mass hiring start to happen without interviewing in the coming years?

40:20 - Find Jonathan at fountain.com for a demo or on LinkedIn! 

Resources:

Jessica Lee on LinkedIn

Tim Sackett on Linkedin

Kris Dunn on LinkedIn

HRU Tech

The Tim Sackett Project

The HR Capitalist

Fistful of Talent

Kinetix

Boss Leadership Training Series


Working Anywhere Means Elite Cities Are Being Shorted...

How's COVID going for you?

I know, what a freaking mess. Nice post by Paul Hebert today over at Fistful of Talent, who's Gostalking about the need for HR Pros to become polymaths, individuals whose knowledge spans a significant number of subjects, known to draw on complex bodies of knowledge to solve specific problems. 

Sounds a lot like what we need in an imploding world are great HR Generalists.

Let's talk about one trend specifically - the idea that people can work anywhere (white collar jobs) in a Post-COVID World.

Do you believe that? If you do, then as a great HR pro, you must adjust your world view to de-prioritize elite cities as a "must have" location for your organization. One company of many - Stitch Fix - is making the move that many of us must contemplate as talent professionals. Stich Fix is getting the hell out of California. More from SFgate.com:

San Francisco-based online personal styling service Stitch Fix is laying off 1,400 stylists in California between now and the end of September, affecting 18% of its workforce, per a statement released on Monday. The online retailer said that after the cuts are made, it will look to hire back in lower-cost states.

The company's model, built around stylists helping subscribers select clothing that is then shipped to customers each month, has been one of the few major success stories in the subscription shopping world.

CEO and founder Katrina Lake, who started the company in 2011, said "all of our California-based stylists will be offered the opportunity to relocate to the new roles in other states."

The company said that the cost of operating in California was becoming increasingly difficult, and plans to hire stylists in other lower-cost states such as Minnesota, Pennsylvania, Ohio and Texas.

Man. If a company like Stich Fix - fashion, style, etc. - is getting out of the Elite City/Elite State game, then you probably need to fire up Talent Neuron from Gartner and figure out where lower cost talent is stateside as well.

Simply put - if people can and will work anywhere, then your ability to find more talent and potentially pay it less grows exponentially. Facebook made a similar move recently - not by firing people in California, but by acknowledging if people choose to work remote and move to a lower cost area, their salary would likely be adjusted for the labor group/area in question.

It's Comp 101. Covid just accelerates the fact that "place" and "location" matters less (note it still matters, but less). We did a decade's worth of transformation in 3 months. 

With this change in mind, the woman who just graduated from Valdosta State (GA) with a degree in fashion and doesn't want to/can't move to an elite city now has a chance to get a job with a premier company.  Same with Facebook - if you're a great developer, you now have a better chance at working for an elite company - without moving from your podunk little town.

Start firing up the research on lower cost talent with the same skills, HR pros.

Side note: My understanding is that Stitch Fix stylists have to serve men looking to upgrade their style. That reminds me of Crazy Stupid Love, with Ryan Gosling but instead featuring a remote stylist trying to convince a 55-year old accountant to give up double pleats. 

Maybe hazard pay for those stylists. 

(Clip with Gosling shopping with Carrell below, email subscribers click through if you don't see it).


What Is Your Pettiest Reason For Being Lukewarm On A Candidate?

Updating this post for COVID-19, although most of you are bigger than that. But that doesn't mean we're not all small in some way...

I'm asking. You know you have some type of petty thing - that's caused you to rank a candidate lower Pettinessthan they should have been.

Candidates who got impacted by COVID? You'll get through that and not hold it against them. But you'll still be holding something small against a cross-section of candidates.

I'm not talking about bias with a capital "B".  I'm talking about bias with a smaller than lower case "b".   It's so petty that the "b" in bias is actual two font sizes smaller than the rest of the word.  

Mine?  I have a hard time with candidates who take me out of my normal messaging environment.  Namely, the ability to use iMessage across different devices and communicate with team members is a preference - not a necessity.  I've hired people that I can't message on the iMessage platform before, and will in the future.  Best candidate wins. 

But when I pick up my phone to SMS a candidate rather than iMessage from my mac, I need to remind myself best candidate wins.  Twice.

What's your pettiest reason for being lukewarm on a candidate?  Hit me in the comments, or message me.  Unless you're not IOS - if that's the case, definitely hit me in the comments.


Glassdoor Says I'm Worth 8K Per Year...

Damn you, Glassdoor!  

Quit toying with me. I have enough s##t going on without you cratering my expected value.

A couple of years ago we were recruiting software sales pros at Kinetix and SF was a target market. So I used my Glassdoor account to confirm that the Bay area was an expensive place to hire hunting sales pros, listing my occupation and location to match the target. I never changed it.

I expected my value to fall a bit during COVID, but c'mon. See my estimated market value as a sales pro in San Francisco below (email subscribers click through if you don't see the chart):

Glassdoor
Summary:

--Glassdoor is really good at some things, like aggregating a marketplace for people to leave reviews on companies, rate confidence in CEOs and give you a general sense of what you might be walking into when you consider joining a new company.

--Glassdoor isn't great at most of the things they're trying to do beyond that, as evidenced by my projected worth displayed above, the fact that I get whacked out job recommendations they think I'd be interested in (spot welder? sure!) or the fact that when I check the job scrape for companies I'm super familiar with, it seems to lag weeks, if not months behind while the non-paid scrapes of LinkedIn and Indeed that look to happen daily.

Glassdoor aggregated the eyeballs, but their execution in what they want to do with those eyeballs once they have them is lacking. I'd assume that's not going to improve with the COVID caused layoffs that just happened at the company (300 employees or 30% of the company let go).

Me? I'm just going to figure out how to make it on 8K.


BEST HIRE EVER PODCAST - Liz Desio, NYC HR Pro Impacted by COVID...

Hi Gang - ramping up a new podcast called BEST HIRE EVER, where I'll be talking about hiring top Liz talent with undeniably talented corporate leaders, recruiters and candidates. Today's guest is EPIC as
I talk to Liz Desio, a resident of NYC and HR Pro. Great talk about Liz’s personal experience with a COVID-19 lay-off, writing, and HR.

Liz's story makes this a must listen - use the show highlights below to spin to what interests you most, but Liz's story about heading to NYC and hustling to be a journalist before landing in the world of Recruiting/HR is a doozy. Talented lady that you should figure out if you can hire 100%. Enjoy the pod and don't forget to subscribe, rate and review (if you love it) on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or Google Play.


Show Highlights:

1:08: KD introduces Liz, HR Pro and Candidate! KD gives some backstory on how they were introduced and why she’s on BHE

4:45: Liz takes us through her career. UVA grad, move to Brooklyn, hustling, getting hired in first HR job (hard knock life), getting out, getting a really good job in HR and then hitting COVID.

14:33: Liz’s take on being a new manager and the challenges she faced dealing with imposter’s syndrome.

16:05: KD asks Liz to share the story of getting laid off during Covid – You can check out her article here: https://medium.com/@lizdesio/making-peace-with-getting-laid-off-9bead164c43a

25:33: KD then pivots to reflective Liz, the one that wrote the post comparing herself to an early character on The Wire who gets killed off in season 1 - https://medium.com/@lizdesio/when-trying-to-switch-career-fields-makes-you-feel-like-dangelo-from-the-wire-4102c0bded99

33:48: KD and Liz discuss his take that recruiting prepares you to be an HR Generalist better than most.

40:15: KD asks Liz what your dream job is in HR. They discuss.

Kinetix

The HR Capitalist

Fistful of Talent

Boss Leadership Training Series

Kris Dunn on LinkedIn

Kris Dunn on Twitter

Kris Dunn on Instagram

KD's Book - The 9 Faces of HR

Liz Desio on Medium

Liz Desio on LinkedIn